It's easy to deride suicide but fact of the matter is that it is the final but a very powerful option we have at our disposal. Instead of saying that a particular person should not have committed suicide, our hope should be that if a suicide happens, it is well thought through and is not done in haste. If a particular person decides that decades of painful life is much worse than simply ending the existence, who are we to question such a personal decision?
Of course, if everything was alright, I would have loved to see Aaron existing in this world for many more years and do wonderful things but not knowing what led him to this step and how he judged the current/future life for himself. Simply commenting that he should not have committed suicide is being insensitive to a person who has already done so much great work for humanity.
Life is not always better than no life. Context matters. A lot.
> By the time you are contemplating suicide, it's not even close.
This is classic begging the question. One could easily say someone who claims suicide is never a rational option is the altered one. It must be seriously condescending for those trying to help someone contemplating suicide to offer such plainly specious arguments against it, especially if that person is the contemplative type. It likely does more harm than good.
It seems to me that the problem in many situations is that suicide is a permanent response to a temporary problem. In most of these cases, were the person being rational, they would probably consider the expected remainder of their life to be more good than bad.
There are certainly exceptions. Terminal illness is an obvious one. A chronic disease - whether physical or mental - that has few prospects for effective treatment is another. I'm inclined to think that Aaron's legal troubles were not, by themselves enough to make suicide a rational option, though I don't know enough about the situation to be sure. If, however, he concluded that his legal troubles were part of conclusive evidence that the world is a bad place that isn't going to get better, suicide might look more rational to me.
No, if you want to be logical, it's clear that suicide is rarely the right choice, and that it's the suicidal person whose critical thinking abilities are impaired.
It's simple: Most people who feel suicidal are feeling suicidal because of/in conditions which are shared by hundreds, thousands, millions of other people. All you have to do, as a rational actor, to decide if suicide makes sense, is to look at what those other people are making of the same situation. In the case of being prosecuted for white collar crimes, most people go on to take their lumps (deserved or not), then go back to their families and a perfectly reasonable existence. There is life afterwards, plenty of it. In some cases, like fraud and hacking etc., quite a few folks turn their experience on the wrong side of the law into valuable consulting gigs. Humans have been evolutionarily selected for resilience.
And, on the flip side, if we're talking interminable physical pain or a fatal disease which is incurable & will only lead to worse and worse deterioration and an unbearably slow death, you can use the same approach to see that suicide may make sense in that situation, to avoid an inescapable fate that all those other people in the same situation are definitely and verifiably experiencing.
The thing about suicidal depression is it cuts off your ability to think like this. You cannot even IMAGINE a world where things get better, where there's an "After." You feel utterly alone… often because you cut yourself off from people who love you & would help you. You think your pains are so special and unique, nobody could understand, and you may even get angry when people try to help you because they can't possibly "get it". You think they're against you. You imagine how much your death will hurt the parties trying to persecute you (real or imagined). Maybe you even think "I'll show them!" or that you will make a good martyr. All of which is nonsense, even though it's very persuasive nonsense… when you're in a suicidal depression.
That's why suicidal depression is clearly, logically, and provably the impairment.
This is why, if you're even remotely contemplating suicide, you should ALWAYS, ALWAYS reach out and seek help. Because if you make a permanent decision, you will have been working off false information. As one of my favorite authors says, "DEPRESSION LIES."
In most cases, suicide is literally stupid. And such a damn shame.
Which lets face it is a Christian rule, and not applicable to all people.
I would like to die right now. I'm just too cowardly. There is no simple switch to do it quickly and painlessly. No way to stop others being upset. No way to stop others discovering something that may scar them. I do not wish to mess up others.
Why? I simply do not belong. I don't understand the human race at all, or the world that has been created. I want to leave, assuming I was ever part of it in the first place, which I don't think I was. Certainly not now. I want to shed my human slavery.
This is rational. It, for me, is not a label like "depression". It a conclusion based on my observation and experience. I willingly concede that others may well be different. How ever, many may not be able or willing to express it, especially given the amount of disdain and patronisation fired carelessly at people who feel this way, by people's knee jerk, ill-considered "opinion".
If you reply, be careful. Its too easy to be arrogant, ignorant and judgemental. Its too easy to trot out the usual tired incorrect tropes. Hearing or reading them just confirms conclusion.
Counselling? Don't make me laugh. I seen a few, none had anything to say. Nothing I had not already considered. Last one I tried packed it in after I left her with no where to go and she realised her profession was at best cosmetic. And that is all people have to offer, well, that or drugs. Oh yeah, be drugged up. That solves it all. Well, it might for people with things like chemical imbalances, but they do nothing by put thinkers to sleep.
Right now? I'm just waiting for it to all end peacefully, or at least quickly.
Sorry if this doesn't fit. But then, neither do I.
sorry Alan- u approach this with rational conviction but your emotions have your logic circuitry out of whack. don't take my word for it- come back to this thread in 5 years and you won't recognize the words! i've been there, i know.
that's why we are "life bullies" - because we've made it through tough times and can guarantee that it gets better. if you were a hungry child without a family or a roof over your head, i wouldn't be lecturing you. but then again you wouldn't have time for despair - you'd count every grain of rice as a blessing. buck up, cowboy up, weather the storm. if you feel out of place in this world, do something to make it better. pick up trash, help old people, build a website for a nonprofit.
throw this junk about how you're so special and don't fit in out of the window. being sad doesn't make you special or deep or wise. your life is YOUR LIFE - make it worth living.
if you like books, read Eckhart Tolle's A New Earth. it's good perspective shared with the weight of firsthand experience.
Being down in the dumps is not good for your mental health :)
You've very accurately described a humour that I find myself in from time to time, sometimes for years, and it's no fun.
The tired tropes are society's collective knowledge on how to deal with it, so to trot them out: I've had to grin and bear it as the saying goes, get some fresh air, cook myself proper food on a regular basis and seek company without getting intoxicated. Sometimes, music is the answer (upbeat stuff does it for me, no radiohead - although even radiohead works for some people). I make a routine of doing these things. I eventually forget the frame of mind, while still remaining a contrarian at heart.
> This is rational. It, for me, is not a label like "depression". It a conclusion based on my observation and experience.
Our rational minds are not somehow separate from our emotions and brain chemistry, though. Beware rational conclusions that have feelings attached, and that make you feel positive affect. And if it's only rational for you, well then that's a statement about your mind (brain), not the world or anything else.
I am also puzzled by this:
> Oh yeah, be drugged up. That solves it all. Well, it might for people with things like chemical imbalances
How would you know whether or not you have one (chemical imbalance isn't correct, but how do you know what your brain chemistry looks like?) And rational conclusions tend not to magically go away due to drugs unless it's drugs that make you seriously impaired in general (which you would notice). And SSRIs don't "put thinkers to sleep", go do some research, and note the thinkers that have been on them for large-ish parts of their careers/productive years.
Finally, have you been checked for common physical illnesses that can cause depression? Off the top of my head, vitamin deficiency is famous for this. Read about people with brain tumours and damage, too, and note how these things can have effects on feelings and whatnot without being noticeable by the person having them.
I understand where you're at, I've posted on this here before[1]. Not existing is an option. It is not cowardly to choose "not today", it is a combination of biological drive to stay alive, and the fact that the choice of suicide is a one-time choice, you can't hit undo on a decision like that, so it is prudent to approach very cautiously.
That being said, I find myself to be fundamentally broken in ways similar to what you describe for yourself. I have found that this apartness can be mitigated, lessened and and accepted by myself and people around me. It isn't easy, and I have to consciously focus on it. However, I also know that by having looked at how I can solve my apartness and lack of understanding with less drastic measures, I have found solutions that work for me. This is why I've chosen 'not today' so far.
I would be glad to talk to you about this, share my experiences and strategies for interacting in a world of people I don't get. I won't try to talk you out of your choice - it is not mine to make. I won't condone it either - that too is not my place. The best I can provide is a simple sharing of my brokenness and hacks to fix it. The tl;dr of it tho, is: treat it like a puzzle or game, it helped me figure out the rules, and the resulting deep analysis helped me get some empathy and insight, allowing me to fit in better even though I didn't really "understand", and that feeling like I have a place even if my role is "that weird guy in the group" really is pretty awesome, and worth carrying on for (to me).
On the interntet nobody knows you are a human. No need to die for that. Also, there is a huge variety of human communities. Perhaps check Jared Diamond, I think his latest book describes tribes in New Guinea.
I bet there are people like you out there somewhere. If only there were some kind of communication network that could help you find each other, without having to reveal your true identity to all the ignorant and judgemental people.
It's painful to go through life so angry. Serious question: would you prefer to die now, or to feel a little less angry and disappointed every day? I also found therapists to be useless, and probably like you I was too smart for my own good. But there was something that totally changed my life. If you'd like to feel something other than rage or emptiness, please get the audiobook (this is important - the audiobook) of When Things Fall Apart by Pema Chodron. It's not touchy-feely, feel good bromides… in fact, it's the opposite. It's about radical understanding of how crappy the world really is, and learning to work with that. Pema delivers everything in a way that someone in misery will identify with, but without PITY or condescension. Please try it.
Have you considered staying here just to see what happens next in the world? To me, it's kind of like a movie that I can't (don't want to) stop watching, even if I'm falling asleep and want to go to bed. I'm not sure it will end before I die, but it is possible and I wanna see it (I would love seeing a zombie apocalypse. But I would settle for another biological or nuclear one too). And if it does not end, at least I wanna see how far we get. Maybe I will live to see the colonization of Mars or something.
But the OP is just so over the top. No point in suggesting he get real help because he's already exposed those frauds! He's got it all figured out.
'probably doing fine already' is about the last thing we should be responding with here. What happens at 25 that makes mental illness irreversible? Younger than 25, you just get over it?
It's hard to reply to the OP. Mostly because I, like many here probably, can relate quite well.
I'd wager a guess that he's in his early twenties, struggled with depression through puberty and has currently found stable ground with a nihilistic perspective that helps him get through the day.
If that's the case then (hence the ~25 year comment) most likely he'll learn to build a perfectly healthy life on top of this stability.
by responding to a 'my god i am so special, no one is like me' post with a simple webcomic that succinctly points out that this is laughably wrong I am myself exhibiting the same behavior?
I am often accused in such discussions of being an offender against some wishy-washy personal development program ("just give depression a chance, what's the worst that could happen?").
Or of being a shill for some evil master-conspiracy to turn everyone into zombies.
Or ... well lots of things, really.
I honestly don't give a fuck.
The results are in:
Treatment. Saves. Lives.
One of these days, someone will read one of my endless simple, spammy messages about seeking help and it will make them less likely to die, because they will get help.
Keep up the good work… seriously. Remember, depression lies, so it's no surprise that people argue against you simply trying to help a fellow human being.
I beg to differ from what you are saying. I do understand your point though, but let me give you another picture. And this I say from personal experience.
People around the world go through tough times. For some the path is eased by good friends, family, "miracles", etc. For others the path becomes too difficult to tackle. In the end the person chooses not to fight any longer.
As much as we should respect this decision, we should also remember that many people avoid that decision to end life and actually become happier in life. Sometimes you may be just an inch away from being saved.
Every person who has every felt disturbed and suicidal and did not take the step, probably feels good about not taking the step. So if you ask me personally I would differ and say we should help each other till the last moment, never give up.
Every person who has every felt disturbed and suicidal and did not take the step, probably feels good about not taking the step.
Having worked as a volunteer on a counselling service for a couple of years I can say without a shadow of a doubt that you are 100% wrong there I'm afraid. Some certainly. Everybody - no.
This reminds me of an episode in Medium(Patricia Arquette) where people regretted jumping from buildings but only after they had jumped. i cant recall the exact plot(google effect?).
While brainless did commit the survivorship bias, I would consider you responding to what he said rather than what he meant to be attacking a strawman.
In this case, lets consider all humans who ever considered suicide. Now, while it's true that we can only observe those who did not commit suicide, we do have a substantial amount of data on humans in general that we can work from. If this claim has you skeptical (ie "successful suicides are a separate reference class"), I will remind you we have data on suicidal people who were forcibly restrained, which you are encouraged to look up.
So now let's look at the core of brainless' argument: people change with time. If you look at happiness rates for quadriplegic patients (or any of the hedonic treadmill research), you'll see that your happiness levels aren't so impacted by life events. This effect is present in both the population of completed suicides, and aborted suicides, and is likely a lot of the causal force brainless is trying to reference.
Which is to say that it's highly likely that people who kill themselves counterfactually wish they didn't.
Agreed! I'm incredibly glad I didn't commit suicide when things got bad and it was on the table. I would've missed so many amazing moments that have come since then, and I can only imagine I have many more in my future. But if I had done so, it's not as if I could've regretted it.
Maybe I put it in the wrong way. But the way I see it, he was a person with dreams. He wanted to go great things. Do you really think such a person wants to die? He was an activist - he lived doing stuff. Dead people can not. I am sure if he could think about it rationally, he was brilliant enough to understand that.
So I personally believe whatever happened is because he felt this was the only escape. To me, again me personally, suicide is no glorified option.
What you are saying makes some sense if and only if it's a choice done NOT out of mental illness - ie. depression
This news is horrifying and only sadness to me, I don't think it was a healthy choice.
We really need to address the stigma of depression in this country and make it easy and painless to ask for help. That help should be free and readily available.
As someone who's suffered from mental illness for most of his life, I disagree. While I have things largely under control these days, it had nothing to do with the professional help that was offered/forced on me; in fact, it was a huge impediment. Receiving help is not a panacea, and I can't blame anyone who's dealt with it for a long time for completely lacking hope.
I don't think suicide is the answer, but I can at least see the point of view; after all, I could've seen myself going down the same path, if I hadn't figured out how to cope.
Absolutely. The idea that all suicides can be prevented "if only he would have gotten help" is such a trite and simple answer to a complex question.
Other comments like "What a waste" and "This didn't need to happen" are borderline insulting. Whether someone realizes it or not, those are incredibly disrespectful comments.
I have no illusion that therapy is magically going to stop all suicides.
But might help get someone to next week or next month or next year where they might feel different about life.
This is one of those things where you don't "do nothing because you cannot completely solve the problem".
I do disagree though - suicides of the young/healthy are often a sad waste, depression needs perspective which you cannot find by simply looking in the mirror.
>I have no illusion that therapy is magically going to stop all suicides.
I think the very existence of "professional therapy" is a factor in FAVOR of depression and suicide.
It means that as a society we have compartmentalised social life, so that the help one previously expected from his family/friends (and ultimately: from the way he can structure his life) is now to be had from paid professionals (or tacky volunteers).
Oh, no you do not understand at all. Depression cannot be dealt with just with an 'ordinary and structured life': it is an illness. It has existed always.
The fact that there are specialists means that today, we have accepted is as what it its: a disease whose symptoms, professionals can, at least, try to decrease or even eliminate.
Do not mistake 'tiredness', 'a season of bad temper', 'the normal stress during a crisis' with a real permanent disorder. Because you may make more harm than good.
>Oh, no you do not understand at all. Depression cannot be dealt with just with an 'ordinary and structured life': it is an illness. It has existed always.
While there are cases of physiological depression (an actual illness) in the staggering majority of cases it's not an illness but an easy cop-out to deny any major wrong with societal structure and the modern way of life.
"The fact that there are specialists" just means that the medical industry has found another profitable malaise to exploit -- similar to all those BS ADD prescriptions.
Ironically, Aaron Swartz conveyed this quite well in one of his posts "fix the factory, not the workers":
"And when the system isn’t working, it doesn’t make sense to just yell at the people in it — any more than you’d try to fix a machine by yelling at the gears. True, sometimes you have the wrong gears and need to replace them, but more often you’re just using them in the wrong way. When there’s a problem, you shouldn’t get angry with the gears — you should fix the machine."
Well, it depends on what you understand by the word. It is obvious that in most cases, when one says "I feel depressed", he is just saying "I feel low", like "I'd like the Earth to swallow me", nobody means "I'd like to die" literally.
However, I just wanted to point out that there are REAL depressions, as you acknowledge (my fear was that you were not acknowledging even this).
>I just wanted to point out that there are REAL depressions
Ah, sure, we agree, there are real depressions.
I just wanted to point out that the absurd numbers of depressions one heres (up to 20-30% of the population) are based non on clinical conditions but on a personal life and/or society out of balance, and are fixable by fixing those, instead of treating the person.
"as a society we have compartmentalised social life, so that the help one previously expected from his family/friends (and ultimately: from the way he can structure his life) is now to be had from paid professionals (or tacky volunteers)"
What if the depressed person is estranged from his family and friends? Or what if he has none? What if he feels he can't talk to either?
You overestimate the help that family and friends can give, even if a depressed person is willing and able to go to them for help. They rarely have the training or understanding of human psychology to do more than provide the equivalent of first-aid.
Expecting family or friends to help someone overcome severe depression is like expecting them to be able to successfully perform surgery. Sure, if they happen to have significant medical training, they might succeed. But in most cases such expectations are completely unrealistic.
When I was first going through what turned into a very long diagnostic phase for some mental health (let's call them) oddities, every person involved at any stage asked, every time I talked to them, whether I had thought of suicide. At one point, I had been asked about it so much I actually started contemplating if I were to kill myself, how would I do it (mind you, this wasn't wanting to, or even entertaining the notion, but me going "Why not actually think through the reality of it?"). I came to the decision that if I were to ever kill myself, I would stab myself in the heart with a knife. Yes, it would be excruciatingly slow and painful (can't quickly stab yourself and dodge ribs, have to drive the blade extremely deep to get the heart, etc.), but it would serve a singular purpose: to signal that it wasn't a quick decision, to absolve people from feeling like there was something more they could have done and to remove all doubt about how strongly I felt about making the particular decision. When I explained this to the psychiatrist next time I was asked, his response was along the lines of "Do you think someone would be capable of that?" And the only response I had was "If they wanted to end it all that badly, yes".
All this as a long ways to get around to saying: I disagree with anything that may consider suicide appropriate in any situation as one persons personal decision and situation becomes an example or model that someone in a similar situation could look to. But, I also don't think anyone should say a particular person should not have committed suicide. Instead, what should be said is a particular person should not have felt the need to commit suicide.
It seems to me that in majority of cases suicide is simply the final symptom of a mental illness that was not or could not be treated and in that the situation is not that different from one in which someone dies for example from cancer. I don't think anyone is really saying that "he should not have committed suicide", what would that even mean really anyway, but it's OK to be sad that we don't always know how to more effectively help people in such cases.
I understand what you mean, but it's the kind of logic I can only follow when I'm actually feeling suicidal. "This is a rational decision, it's not a bad thing to do, society has stigmatized it but I have a right". But (for me) a few days later, the weight just sort of lifts, and suddenly it seems like a really terrible, selfish idea again. I know it'll come back, and I dread that, but in the meantime I can't consider that it would have a been a reasonable choice. Things feel very real and very logical at the time, but looking back it's hard to understand why.
Of course, if everything was alright, I would have loved to see Aaron existing in this world for many more years and do wonderful things but not knowing what led him to this step and how he judged the current/future life for himself. Simply commenting that he should not have committed suicide is being insensitive to a person who has already done so much great work for humanity.
Life is not always better than no life. Context matters. A lot.