Ach, fuck it, one more, for it got personal. A tad bit out of order:
> "Is this seriously a point of confusion for you?"
Another strawman; it's about art as opposed to programming which I objected to, not about some confabulation of art as "drawing and painting".
> "Up until this sentence I assumed I was talking to another person who does both art and programming. [...] Which means you're just running your mouth about something you have no experience with."
I am interested in and develop my skills in both disciplines; I don't claim to be even close to a master in both. So keep such speculations about my life to yourself.
> "Ten years of full time study to learn, according to a master who has been teaching for over 35 years. Are you going to lie and tell me it takes that long to get a job as a programmer?"
You started out with the imprecise statement "reasonably good". That already begged the question what you fucking mean by that. Only now, after much back-and-forth, you roll-in with James Watts who talks in his vidya, after being prompted to describe what he considers the fucking teaching elite of his field and what it took to get there, with some extrapolations based on experience. Not exactly an optimum comparison to some "reasonably good" Coder Johnny in whatever particular (set of) coding language(s) you were sadly only dreaming about in these moments, but they are all the same anyway, amirite? ;)
And the essence worth taking home from Watts? He doesn't, and I paraphrase, "try to put his students in a box" when gouging the way ahead of 'em. In other words: "It depends". Yeah, it fucking does, lol. Any educator worth their salt knows that.
> "I can name more programmers than I can count on my fingers that got a job straight out of a four-year or two-year program. I've never met or heard of an artist that got a full time professional job with less than ten years of study."
Good for you. I on the other hand met many artists that got pro jobs after a four program at a university. Of course, like the programmers, almost each and everyone of them [1] already honed their skills (depending on talent and life circumstances even long) before they enrolled for art (or compsci) courses. That obviously still leaves one to define if these people are just "reasonably good" or are peers to "the (teaching) elite" at that point, let alone taking in account outliers such as (child) prodigies or late bloomers.
> "Oh, I realize now you're just new to internet forums, [...]"
No. I only realized too late that you clearly never made it beyond reiterating tedious logical fallacies in this discussion. You can do better.
1. Only one notable outlier: I know two cutters/editors (one now a successful TV film director) that got jobs straight out of a two- or three-year film school who never did anything even remotely close to their chosen field before.
> "Is this seriously a point of confusion for you?"
Another strawman; it's about art as opposed to programming which I objected to, not about some confabulation of art as "drawing and painting".
> "Up until this sentence I assumed I was talking to another person who does both art and programming. [...] Which means you're just running your mouth about something you have no experience with."
I am interested in and develop my skills in both disciplines; I don't claim to be even close to a master in both. So keep such speculations about my life to yourself.
> "Ten years of full time study to learn, according to a master who has been teaching for over 35 years. Are you going to lie and tell me it takes that long to get a job as a programmer?"
You started out with the imprecise statement "reasonably good". That already begged the question what you fucking mean by that. Only now, after much back-and-forth, you roll-in with James Watts who talks in his vidya, after being prompted to describe what he considers the fucking teaching elite of his field and what it took to get there, with some extrapolations based on experience. Not exactly an optimum comparison to some "reasonably good" Coder Johnny in whatever particular (set of) coding language(s) you were sadly only dreaming about in these moments, but they are all the same anyway, amirite? ;)
And the essence worth taking home from Watts? He doesn't, and I paraphrase, "try to put his students in a box" when gouging the way ahead of 'em. In other words: "It depends". Yeah, it fucking does, lol. Any educator worth their salt knows that.
> "I can name more programmers than I can count on my fingers that got a job straight out of a four-year or two-year program. I've never met or heard of an artist that got a full time professional job with less than ten years of study."
Good for you. I on the other hand met many artists that got pro jobs after a four program at a university. Of course, like the programmers, almost each and everyone of them [1] already honed their skills (depending on talent and life circumstances even long) before they enrolled for art (or compsci) courses. That obviously still leaves one to define if these people are just "reasonably good" or are peers to "the (teaching) elite" at that point, let alone taking in account outliers such as (child) prodigies or late bloomers.
> "Oh, I realize now you're just new to internet forums, [...]"
No. I only realized too late that you clearly never made it beyond reiterating tedious logical fallacies in this discussion. You can do better.
1. Only one notable outlier: I know two cutters/editors (one now a successful TV film director) that got jobs straight out of a two- or three-year film school who never did anything even remotely close to their chosen field before.