In my house (1970 vintage) the dining room, while small (has room for the standard hutch plus drop leaf dining table, and not much else) is still a vestigial formal room. Has the front window, has direct access from the front door/hall. Food preparation could be kept isolated from guests, as was once the fashion.
Current fashion is everyone hangs around in the kitchen while the final food prep is done, and only then migrates to the dining room to eat. Which is nice and informal, and totally OK for the post-servant era. So does it matter if the dining table is in an open concept setting with the kitchen, or separated by walls and a door? It functions the same either way.
Much more bizarre is the "vestigial living room" - barely enough room for a sofa - still exists but its minuscule size admits that the real living room is now the rear-facing family room. To be clear, my house still has the full (front facing) living room, with the fireplace and all. But I've seen the tiny vestigial living rooms in more modern houses.
I definitely feel both ways about this. When I have a couple of close friends over, I like them to have a place to sit and chat that feels connected to the kitchen. I'm happy to chat and drink with them while I chop vegetables and attend to a pan, and I don't feel too self-conscious about saying "oops, give me a sec" if cooking demands 100% of my attention for a minute or two. And my friends know better than to try to help me with cleanup (though they're welcome to chop.)
When I'm hosting more people, or people I don't know well, I don't want them anywhere near the kitchen. Especially when there are a lot of guests and the kitchen starts to resemble a triage area at a mass casualty event, and when you have to fend off well-meaning people who try to wash the dishes or something else that they don't realize is extremely unhelpful. I need to be on in the kitchen, not sociable. It's work. The kitchen is just for me, my wife, and in extreme cases, close friends who know us well enough to be actually helpful by taking things to the table and replenishing drinks.
The latter situation is much rarer than the former, so I'm glad we have an open kitchen, but I really feel how much better it would be to have a separate room for hosting big events.
I've heard it suggested that the ideal solution would be a closed-off kitchen where you keep all the mess, the simmering pots, the dirty dishes, and the sweat and swearing, and a second open kitchen where you can smile and do the impressive and/or photogenic cooking in front of your guests to show how effortless and organized you are in the kitchen.
EDIT/PS: Space issues are beside the point, IMO — many people living in small spaces have a "dining room" or at least a "dinner table" that is busy with other things the rest of the day (mail, homework, laundry, etc.) and only gets dedicated to meals at mealtime. It's only empty all day if you have a surplus of space.
Old New England houses had a "keeping room" attached to the kitchen, a small heated seating area for people to sit and chat with the cook while cooking.
Kitchens, I believe, are larger than they used to be. Often with islands that have high chairs and/or a separate large table.
Old-time kitchens tended to be cramped. I lost track of the number of old-house renovations friends did which involved knocking out a kitchen wall and effectively merging the dining room and kitchen into one "open plan". New construction basically already does that!
An old style "galley" kitchen is actually more efficient as a kitchen, but it's not popular because it isn't very good as a social space and doesn't tend to have a lot of storage space for all the gadgets people have in their kitchens now.
I don't like the current trend of kitchen/living room hybrids. Open kitchens are pretty bad for indoor air quality and reduce the effect of insulation. The former is especially problematic for those with gas stoves. Moreso when combined with recirculating filtering extractor fans instead of the ones that vent the polluted air outside.
A smallish kitchen with a door and a good fan keeps the rest of house warm in winter, and keeps pollutants out of the house.
You pretty much explained how to fix this though. A good extractor and an induction stove. The heating issues are manageable even with an extractor fan.
Nobody wants to be hidden away in a small kitchen these days. So lonely, and completely impractical if you have small kids you need to keep an eye on at the same time.
A good extractor fan in an open kitchen will undo some of the usefulness of your home's insulation. It's much easier to just keep the kitchen smaller, and thus the volume of heated air that gets wasted. This is obviously more important in places that get cold.
On the other hand, an open kitchen makes it easy for children or pets to get into the kitchen and accidentally turn the stove knobs, grab/eat something they shouldn't, or knock something over (including glass and knives).
But yeah if you can keep your kid contained but within eyesight I guess it works. You can always use a camera for the eyesight part, though.
I’m surprised they didn’t touch on the Internet as a factor. Before, dinner parties were the best way for friends to catch up and talk, and fill one another in on their lives. Everybody would gather around for hours, and talk about new things going on in their careers, their children, other friends, news, sports, you name it.
Nowadays, you can just hop onto your group chat(s) and fill everyone in on these things in real time. So, the dinner party became less of a necessity for social interaction; and the actual dinner itself was never the point. With less of a need to hang around for hours on end to catch up, it’s become more efficient to just go to a restaurant, spend an hour or so, and then leave. Nobody is left to clean up, or spend half the day preparing meals.
Perhaps its because the average house (e.g. the Simpsons house) is no longer achievable for the majority of young people, smaller footprints mean things have to become multipurpose.
Looking at the trends for home size, it seems like those size homes, 2000sqft+, only started getting built relatively recently, so it's not as if they're some kind of human right.
How did people host before 1990, I wonder?
How do people host in Europe, where the average home size is still relatively modest?
It's relatively rare to host anyone other than family in European countries. In asian cultures you commonly host people at restaurants / catering halls.
Smaller bedrooms, smaller kitchens, smaller every room. My grandparents' house's rooms were small in every direction, but the entire house still fit a dining room with room for 8 (snuggly), family room, living room, kitchin, bathroom, and multiple bedrooms.
> I spend remarkably more waking hours in these locations compared to where I sleep.
That's good. For sleep health, your sleeping room should ideally be used only for sleeping. Don't work, read, watch TV, etc. in that room. If you work from home or need an office or studio, that should be a separate room if at all possible.
One of my favorite buildings in San Francisco is an Art Deco apartment tower, bordering on an SRO at the time it was built. The residents were expected to entertain their guests in the dining room, lobby, and bar, instead of in their homes. And they did so.
That wasn't the average house which is partly why Simpsons had a whole storyline about how they could afford it. A more likely reason is probably the growth of the single-person households which grew from 6.9% in the 60s to 38% now. People live alone and they eat alone.
Another factor may be the decline in popularity of hosting dinner parties in blue cities. It’s nearly impossible to host a dinner for many people due to all the dietary restrictions. Years ago, you might have had a vegetarian or two, but now we gluten intolerance, vegans, and people in general are far more vocal about dietary restrictions. A potluck is the best one can hope for when hosting a party for those under the age of 40.
I think it also speaks to one's mindset when they talk about people that way.
If I invite someone for a meal I want to know what their preferences but especially what their food allergies and intolerances are so I can make something they'll be able to eat and enjoy. I don't eat meat (I must be a "blue" household then according to parent) so I just eat whatever is there that doesn't have meat in it but if people know I'm a vegetarian and make a meat alternative that's great but not necessary. I'm not making a fuss about it but then again I'm not very confrontational, just isn't worth it. Parent is probably different and seems to know people who aren't like that.
Being accepting of other people's shortcomings (food allergy/sensitivity/intolerance) and tolerant of their lifestyles (vegetarianism/veganism) are things that can be learned. I believe in you.
I do it all the time, it's really not hard. Make a filling vegan dish that's also gluten-free and most of the time that will cover everyone. Make the meat an optional garnish for that dish rather than the main feature. If you have a guest with an allium allergy you'll need a third thing. Sorbet, granita, or just fresh fruit for dessert will hit just about everyone.
There are entire books about this if you need ideas but the core exercise is not difficult if you already know how to cook.
No one is forcing you to invite such people over for dinner and cook for them. I'm sure they'd be happier not spending time with you, based on this short interaction I've had with you.
I’m a very bad person, yes. And your comment speaks to innocuous parent post that dietary restrictions are leading to less people hosting dinner parties. See how that works?
Buddy when you're eight comments deep fighting for your life like this how are you gonna pretend your initial statement was innocuous. You came here with a bone to pick.
> Interesting the mods deleted my entirety innocuous parent comment as well.
No, they didn't. Unless by "the mods" you mean "the users of HN". Your comment was flag killed which is a consequence of user actions, not a moderator action. It also wasn't deleted, any logged in user can still see it if they turn on "show dead" in their profile.
It happens. Best response is to ignore it or reach out to the actual mods (contact email on pretty much every page here). Commenting about negative moderation generally gets you more negative moderation.
Can confirm. The single-family town-home I just bought (built in 1997) has no dining room. Our dining table will be in a corner of the kitchen, what used to be called the breakfast nook. We'll be able to comfortably seat about six, but, lord help us if we ever decide we need to squeeze in a buffet or a hutch! What use do millennials have for fancy china, anyway?
It's interesting; growing up we had a 'great room' type large room setup, and we artificially divided it into a dining room and living room with furniture because doing without a dining room for holidays and guests was unthinkable, even if we didn't use it in every day dinners.
I guess the current owners of that house probably just enjoy the large room.
It’s interesting how true this is. Definitely harder to host people now, I’ve managed to get by but it’s definitely awkward to host people in my current unit, and the big thing I’m excited about when I move is the ability to host a group of people for a meal
Yeah I remember my parents hosting a few dinner parties when I was young, but after I was maybe 8 or 10 years old they just stopped. It is a lot of work and I don't think many of the guests ever reciprocated.
In my case absolutely none bar family reciprocated.
Tons of work, before and after, expensive.
I think that between families getting smaller, a tendency to spend much less time socializing in general, and economic conditions making it cost effective to just take people out rather than cooking for them it's not worth it.
Even my family in the south of Italy were gathering 20/30 people together was common is now limited both in frequency and attendance (few generations that didn't have 3/4 but 1/2 people each shrunk the party considerably).
We own two grandfather clocks. They sit in corners of the dining room, which isn't much used. Of course they aren't being used as clocks, as they're completely obsolete for that purpose.
People complain about modern disposable objects, but they do solve the problem of antiques encumbering ones life.
It would be useful to go through ones life periodically and decide what's become a burden and should be discarded.
Our family and everybody around us (all middle-aged and living in a mid to low income neighborhood) have a dining space with a table that they use for most meals.
Yeah, if you're single and renting a small apartment there is no need. But if you are raising kids you need to have a space where you can share food, share ideas, and connect at least once a day.
