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> Johnson & Johnson created LTL in 2021 in a maneuver to shield itself from the talc litigation, but an earlier bankruptcy filing by the unit was challenged by the plaintiffs and dismissed this year by a U.S. appeals court, which ruled that a bankruptcy wasn’t the right way to resolve the matter.

I'm extremely glad this tactic failed.



Also wild is that this tactic won Allison Brown the "Litigator of the Year" award from American Lawyer. Truly a cursed profession in a lot of ways.

https://www.law.com/americanlawyer/2022/11/22/litigator-of-t...


I'm unsure of the criteria for the reward, but it appears that they considered it an impressive effort to defend an unsympathetic client.

The public benefit from presenting a vigorous defense in all cases (not just ones with sympathetic defendants) is to require the prosecution, as a matter of course, to actually prove their case in accordance with the law, something which should be required in a fair court system.


How does a corporation filing a sham bankruptcy to avoid paying out a legally mandated penalty improve justice?

I can just as easily say that this tactic degrades prosecutorial effectiveness because it disincentives lawyers from taking cases. The corporations will just spin off and kill a business unit and no one gets compensated.


Because Captailism has corrupted our institutions to the point that money rules everything. Democracy and Justice is only for those with enough cash. Like the big4 accounting firms, they arnt the big 4 because they serve the public the public interest. They are the goto because they have the influence and the knowledge to extract as much cash as possible from democracies.


Also, they enable money laundering on massive scales. KPMG, I’m staring at you.


If I'm reading it correctly, the award was not for inventing or implementing the bankrupcty tactic, but for litigating the two cases.


*award


I would have named the award "The Year of the Alligator".


Of course alligators don’t eat lawyers. Professional courtesy.


Her performance as a trial lawyer in these cases has been nothing short of average. It’s shocking that she managed to eek out any defense verdicts at all in the underlying litigation.


People like this should be hung from a light post and beaten with sticks as a warning to the rest of them that this shit will not be tolerated.


That's how society handled snakes and demons for most of human history. It's arguable societal decline stems from moving away from this approach.


Be carefull what you wish for, I can see a few startup founders will be ranking high as candidates for the same treatment.


If the law is the primary obstacle preventing the majority from beating unscrupulous CEOs to within an inch of their life, then perhaps the majority should consider passing legislation that permits this as the current set of laws has abjectly failed.


This tactic wasn't as bad as you imply. J&J put the greater of $61.5 billion or the value of its consumer division (as determined when the paperwork was done) in LTL to cover claims and added itself as a creditor in last place. The idea was they would get back any value less than that after a result of the bankruptcy.

In this case, they would have recovered over $50 billion from the bankrupt company after the suit was paid off (assuming this deal covers all parties).


You'd only go to that extra work and complexity if you believed it would potentially be beneficial. Presumably, they feared the possibility of a multi-hundred billion dollar verdict.

That they didn't need the tactic in the end doesn't make it any less sleazy to have attempted it.


Like I said, I don't actually think it protects more money. It was pretty much secured by the value of the subsidiary responsible.

On the contrary, doing that much extra work and complexity pays off mostly in organizational ways. Letting the current business operate without overly worrying about the progress of the trial (instead just having value removed by it), managing multiple plaintiffs, etc.

And if the total amount of lawsuits exceeds the value of the company, it prevents the earlier plaintiffs from getting 100% and the last plaintiffs from getting 0% (which results in more expensive lawsuits).


> It was pretty much secured by the value of the subsidiary responsible.

Which is less than the value of all of J&J, which should all be at risk for egregious misconduct.

> And if the total amount of lawsuits exceeds the value of the company, it prevents the earlier plaintiffs from getting 100% and the last plaintiffs from getting 0% (which results in more expensive lawsuits).

Sure, but it prevents everyone from getting what they should get from J&J in that scenario.


> Sure, but it prevents everyone from getting what they should get from J&J in that scenario.

There's no way to give everyone what they're owed if there isn't enough money to go around. An orderly procedure is better than everyone rushing in with sharp elbows, and that's exactly why we have bankruptcy laws and courts - a system that works very well on the whole.


> There's no way to give everyone what they're owed if there isn't enough money to go around.

There's at least more money (significantly so!) in J&J as a whole than one of J&J's subsidiaries.

If my teenager had a car accident and injured you, I don't get to spin them off into a new standalone family unit and say "gee, sorry, you can't sue me!"


> There's at least more money (significantly so!) in J&J as a whole than one of J&J's subsidiaries.

No there isn't. 61.5 billion in this subsidy, while the equity value of the whole company is 76.8 billion.

> If my teenager had a car accident and injured you, I don't get to spin them off into a new standalone family unit and say "gee, sorry, you can't sue me!"

Depends where you are; in a lot of states you wouldn't be liable.


J&J's market cap is a bit over $400B, with assets in the nearly $200B range. I guarantee you the talc subsidiary isn't 80% of J&J's total value.

> Depends where you are; in a lot of states you wouldn't be liable.

Take one of those states, then. In California, the parent is civilly liable if they granted the teen permission to drive the car. Should disowning your kid be a viable way out of that?


> In California, the parent is civilly liable if they granted the teen permission to drive the car. Should disowning your kid be a viable way out of that?

I mean, we have plenty of stories of people divorcing to avoid liability for their partner's medical/end-of-life care costs. So this stuff isn't limited to companies.


> Letting the current business operate without overly worrying about the progress of the trial

They should worry about it, that's the point of being put on trial.

You seem to be missing a simple matter - reciprocity.

These tactics are not available to me if I get sued by J&J, so why should they be available to J&J if they get sued by me?


Even Wikipedia clearly states:

"The Texas two-step allows solvent companies to shield their assets from litigants using protections that are normally reserved for bankrupt companies"

So I find your claims highly dubious that "wasn't as bad"


So I have an observation - when someone says we should be 'tough on crime', they never seem to be talking about corporate malfeasance and fraud. They always mean 'little people' crime.

How can we make a campaign slogan specific to shit like this? Should we call it 'tough on some crime'? 'Tough on big crime?'


“Tough on white collar crime”

It’s already a slogan, there have been multiple presidential candidates in the last few years who made it a cornerstone of their campaign.


Tough on campaign donor crime. Hmm.


"Tough on white collar crime"


Tough on corporate crime.


This tactic is called a "Texas two-step", and it was used successfully by Georgia-Pacific in another asbestos related situation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_two-step_bankruptcy


worth reading Matt Levine's explanation of this: https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2023-01-31/matt-l...


Off topic but what AMC is doing is definitely fraud.


[flagged]


Well, they were trying to make it work asbestos they could.


Taint need your help


>talctic


I was downvoted and flagged for the same thing, so, at the risk of a Reddit-esque comment, have my upvote.


Im getting ban-hammered for my (same as yours) pun.

I hate people that hate puns, because they are not Norwegian.


Y'all need to chuckle more.


z\\One of my favorite things about my love, is our love of 'chuckling

One of the things which draw us closer to each other is how we are able to make each other chuckle with stupid jokes.

Its a wonderful practice, you should give it a try.

>>This comment brought to you by Wheeties, Titie Whitites and 1955




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