Yes, and there are self-taught people working at Google who do bleeding edge cryptography work. Many, many fewer than those with PhDs but I know tptacek and daeken are excellent and have no formal qualifications.
If your goal is to get a job at Google a PhD is a poor way to get it.
We might have different definitions of "bleeding edge". I meant cryptography research, with implication that work is publishable.
Google Research employs 2000+ people. I believe not only they all have PhDs, but also from top-tier schools.
a PhD is really an absolute minimum requirement for those jobs, and with extremely fierce competition for those jobs, I would be seriously surprised there is anyone there without a PhD who is doing actual cryptography research. Not aware of any exceptions to this general rule.
"a job" could also be a janitor. yes, don't need a phd for that. for some jobs it's a bare minimum qualification.
(not to say people should necessarily strive for those, but such is life)
Googler here. Believe it or not, a lot of cutting edge work (even cutting edge crypto) is happening outside of the research organization. We even publish papers! And yes, some of those folks doing crypto work don’t have PhDs.
Hiring is weird. You definitely don’t need an advanced degree to get your resume looked at, but a PhD from a top program will at least get you interviews and so it gets you over one difficult hurdle.
It would be great if you could point to a specific example of a published article where a named author does not have a PhD. I 100% believe you but just to shut down those who believe that a PhD is a necessity to do research.
> Google Research employs 2000+ people. I believe not only they all have PhDs, but also from top-tier schools.
This would imply that Google Research is a great deal less meritocratic than Economics research, where someone like John List, who went to an unranked school, can end up teaching at UChicago. More generally ranking is not as big a dealn in Europe in at least one country, Germany. There are definitely people with doctorates from schools you've never heard of working at Google Research.
I don't think Google Research is as credentialist as you paint it. I'm willing to bet $200 at even odds that I can find one person working at Google Research as a researcher who does not have a PhD. My email is in my profile.
it is possible, as i stated just below in my comment i'm simply not aware of any exceptions.
to be sure, i specifically selected cryptography in the very first comment for a specific reason. math subspecialties require rather unhealthy amounts of training that is best started as early as practically possible. it is very hard to do, a mentor often helps and speeds up the process, and by the time you start doing original research as a fully self-taught mathematician, well, you might as well get get some recognition of your efforts by way of getting a degree, plus potentially get funded to do it. why not?
due to several factors, in all probability, successful applicants for mathematical research (cryptology) positions will have a phd, if nothing else simply because prior original research is likely to be required. competition pushes up the entry barrier as high as possible, for better or worse, and so the exceptions in research without a phd are going to be exactly that - exceptions.
the school ranking is a bit of a red herring here. while reputation of the school itself does matter quite a bit of course despite everyone doing their best to pretend it doesn't (but insist on sending their kids to the best school possible), it is simply that very often talent is sought out from specific groups/departments/professors who just happen to teach at this institution, wherever they are located. it's just that most of the time large well known institutions have budgets and brand recognition that attracts top talent, often from around the world. brain drain is real.
just to be sure, its not that i recommend everyone goes out and gets a phd in math (personally, i think that even a masters degree is a complete waste of time for the vast majority of jobs), but that in some situations it is a de facto pre-requisite. it likely will not pay off financially and it is a big commitment that can crush you mentally, emotionally and potentially even physically. some departments have sadly a reputation for high suicide rates.
btw. john list does have a phd, and spent 8 years teaching elsewhere prior to UC. not sure if that supports your meritocracy argument, as one would think someone with his reputation today could advance quicker.
> john list does have a phd, and spent 8 years teaching elsewhere prior to UC. not sure if that supports your meritocracy argument, as one would think someone with his reputation today could advance quicker.
I know John List has a PhD. I said he went to an unranked school. You had previously said
> Google Research employs 2000+ people. I believe not only they all have PhDs, but also from top-tier schools.
and I was pointing out that Google Research seemed unlikely to be more credentialist than university economic research, implying that there would be quite a few people at GR with PhDs from non-top schools.
I don't think there's much disagreement between us. I doubt there are more than 20 researchers at GR without PhDs, if that many. May your research and life be fruitful.
If your goal is to get a job at Google a PhD is a poor way to get it.