> The U.S. Court of Appeals for the D.C. Circuit has affirmed a district court ruling that human authorship is a bedrock requirement to register a copyright, and that an artificial intelligence system cannot be deemed the author of a work for copyright purposes
> The court’s decision in Thaler v. Perlmutter,1 on March 18, 2025, supports the position adopted by the United States Copyright Office and is the latest chapter in the long-running saga of an attempt by a computer scientist to challenge that fundamental principle.
I, like many others, believe the only way AI won't immediately get enshittified is by fighting tooth and nail for LLM output to never be copyrightable
Thaler v. Perlmutter is an a weird case because Thaler explicitly disclaimed human authorship and tried to register a machine as the author.
Whereas someone trying to copyright LLM output would likely insist that there is human authorship is via the choice of prompts and careful selection of the best LLM output. I am not sure if claims like that have been tested.
The US copyright office has published a statement that they see AI output analogous to a human contracting the work out to a machine. The machine would hold the copyright, but can't, consequently there is none. Which is imho slightly surprising since your argument about choice of prompt and output seems analogous to the argument that lead to photographs being subject to copyright despite being made by a machine.
On the other hand in a way the opinion of the US copyright office doesn't matter, what matters is what the courts decide
It's a fine line that's been drawn, but this ruling says that AI can't own a copyright itself, not that AI output is inherently ineligible for copyright protection or automatically public domain. A human can still own the output from an LLM.
>I, like many others, believe the only way AI won't immediately get enshittified is by fighting tooth and nail for LLM output to never be copyrightable
If the person who prompted the AI tool to generate something isn't considered the author (and therefore doesn't deserve copyright), then does that mean they aren't liable for the output of the AI either?
Ie if the AI does something illegal, does the prompter get off scot-free?
Platforms want this because it means they can get rid of the mountains of money they were paying for moderators to keep "child unfriendly" content off their platform
"If your kid is on Discord, and sees something they shouldn't, it's their or your fault, not ours"
TIL detention without trial is a thing in Singapore [^1], ministers love to brag about increasing the severity of detention without trial [^2], and that the longest someone was held in detention without trial in Singapore was 23+9 years [^3]. That person was never charged.
Policing SOPs in East Asia (incl. Singapore) is different than policing SOPs in the west. Typically people are warned, often multiple times, that they are in danger of experiencing the less kind side of local law. Once the switch is flipped, this gentle hand becomes an iron fist.
I will bet dollars to donuts that the person who was held without charge for decades (mentioned above) was completely not surprised that they were severely punished. They may not have liked the punishment, they may not have agreed with the opaque process, but they almost certainly can’t say that they didn’t know it was coming.
You quoted "reasonable", but nothing what you said has any effect on reasonableness.
If someone warns you that they're going to murder you if you post another 5 comments on HackerNews, and keeps you up-to-date with every comment you make, nothing about those warnings makes the subsequent murder after your 5th comment more reasonable than if they hadn't given those warnings.
> You quoted "reasonable", but nothing what you said has any effect on reasonableness.
Being notified that you are or have been breaking the law and being told that there will be severe consequences if you don’t stop seems reasonable to me.
It may not be how we do it in the west, but it’s hard to argue that this can’t be perceived as reasonable.
Let me give you an example that opened my eyes. It’s one of many, but it’s one that you may have heard of.
Michal Fay was caned in Singapore in the 1990s. I was so put off by this, that I swore never to go to Singapore. I thought that the punishment far exceeded that which could be justified by the crimes he committed (petty stuff like vandalizing cars).
Then, within a 6 month period, I met two families who lived as expatriates in Singapore at the same time, one in the same community.
They all said that MF was a pariah. They also both said that he and his family had been given gradually escalating warnings over a short period of time, with the next to last one being “MF needs to leave Singapore now”, and the last one being “you (his family) and MF need to leave Singapore now”. Apparently the job was too good, so the family stayed. We know the rest of the story.
A decade later, I met a woman who worked in Singapore at the time, and she expressed similar sentiments.
While I still think the punishment was excessive (even reduced to 4 lashings instead of 6), I lost all pity for MF and his family. They knew what was coming, and they either didn’t understand the culture they were in, or they didn’t believe what they were told.
I’ve see similar types of policing (with warnings and an explanation of potential consequences) happen in Japan, China, and South Korea. IMHO, it works the way they want it to (mostly as an early deterrent, with very little prosecution actually taking place). This is one reason why there is such a high success rates of criminal convictions in places like Japan — if they make the effort to book you, they have overwhelming evidence, usually collected when the criminal has been warned.
We may not like the laws, we may not like the punishments, but we shouldn’t be surprised by the outcomes.
> If someone warns you that they're going to murder you if you post another 5 comments on HackerNews, and keeps you up-to-date with every comment you make, nothing about those warnings makes the subsequent murder after your 5th comment more reasonable than if they hadn't given those warnings.
Great strawman.
Posting on HN is not against the law (at least where I am).
> Posting on HN is not against the law (at least where I am).
If my scenario were law, it would still be entirely unreasonable.
Besides, law is an entirely fluid concept in general, including in Singapore, but really anywhere, to varying degrees. The US has recently been making this incredibly clear for even the blindest to see, but it was already the case before.
That's one of my favorite pieces of writing by Gibson, because he cites Neal Stephenson's "burbclave" concept. Which, to me, is like the literary equivalent of those times when a famous musician or band (including but not limited to the Barenaked Ladies and Don McLean) performed the Weird Al version of their own song.
Well, to get the death penalty you have to be charged. I actually think Singapore laws on what could get you the death penalty are pretty clear, and you'd be stupid to violate them. Being detained without trial seems scarier imo
You need not violate them knowingly. Just having drugs in your bag placed clandestinely by someone else could get you in trouble. Along with being held without trial and risk of death penalty, this is scary.
after reading the wiki article I'm quite certain he was saved and kept alive to continue his work. someone was out for his head but didn't have enough reach.
but that's just an assumption based on stories in the good old Soviet Union.
Detention without trial is also a thing in the UK. Legally limited to 6 months but extended in practice if you are Irish or advocate against the genocide in Palestine. Ask the people of Palestine Action UK.
With the growing fascism all over the world we will see that kind of thing more often.
> This trial marks the first attempt in Britain to treat political property damage as equivalent to terrorism - an unprecedented and dangerous expansion of state power. Under the current Labour government, many defendants will have spent nearly two years behind bars before even standing trial.
Everyone in this thread is conflating/misunderstanding various things and seems a little misinformed.
"Detention without trial" is a thing in the UK, as well as the US, Canada, and many (most?) other countries, even those considered non-authoritarian or whatever, for lots of crimes, not just politically convenient ones. This isn't a new thing because of growing fascism, it's literally the distinction between "jail" and "prison", or what the bail system is for. Court systems don't have the capacity to try everyone immediately upon arrest, and in various ways, look to balance that with the right to a speedy trial, the right to a presumption of innocence, justice, and public safety.
(I'm not making any judgement on the balance Britain is striking in this particular case, which sounds bad!)
But what OP is pointing out as problematic in Singapore's case is 1) detention without even being charged with a crime, which is what the UK government website linked above says is forbidden beyond a relatively short time frame and 2) the absence of any kind of a right to a speedy trial.
Trial delays and court backlogs in the UK are indeed terrible, as few people here would disagree. They are not without court oversight (remand hearings, etc). They affect many people – rape victims being a notable example – and I do not believe that these systemic problems are politically motivated.
This is why I personally believe that the "anyone is allowed to vote for anyone" style of democracy is really dumb, and Chinese "democracy" (whatever that is), is superior for governance.
So... de-facto mass deanonymisation of all Spanish social media users? I see a lot of supporters of these policies either not acknowledge that you can't identify under-16yo without identifying over-16yos.
Age verification is possible without revealing personally identifiable information (beyond old enough yes/no, which is not in any way personally identifiable info) and from my perspective should be a strict requirement with any such laws.
In fact, if these laws make the requisite infrastructure (ID cards that offer that functionality) a hard requirement then creating an anonymous web that nevertheless has age checks easier, not harder.
What you basically want is an ID card where you as the owner can decide what you want to share with the private business. And for age verification that’s basically just requirement fulfilled yes/no.
So if the law is well written then this could be an advantage, not a disadvantage. Preemptive cynicism isn’t helpful here.
Given the track record of both the country and other EU attempts (despite the existence of a zero trust verification framework) I am quite sure this will be used to de-anonymize users online, see UK.
There it rears its ugly head again, the preemptive cynicism that prevents anything good from ever getting done.
It’s simple really: zero trust age verification should be a strict requirement of any such law and anything else illegal for age verification.
That to me is what has to happen and it’s important to me. That’s my perspective on this – not that‘s never going to happen anyway, so no point in trying to.
Social media is toxic to kids (and adults, but that’s a different matter), extraordinary measures are called for, even with risks. It’s hyper optimized to be the equivalent of a drug, and should be regulated as such.
Hacienda is the most extractive Tax Agency in the world. They have lobbied for ever more intrusion into private lifes of citizens in order to extract more money. Thus they have included a "lifestyle auditing" that has access to many cross-databases, utilities, insurance, etc....
If you set up a system of ID identification linked to your real ID and IP, Hacienda (and the police, and eventually private companies) will be able to backtrack.
The current PM's rother, wife and half of his cabinet are involved in corruption scandals linked to COVID funds given to companies that bribed people. This is the government that will implement such efforts. Would you be able to trust them ?
It is definitely technically possible, and it has been for some time in many places. But I doubt anybody (sm companies, state) cares to implement it like that, instead of taking it as a chance to increase surveillance.
It is not preemptive cynicism. My issue isn't with private corporations having access to my data, it's with my government having access to my social media profile.
Zero trust age verification means both sides don’t have to learn anything about each other beyond old enough yes/no. Should mean that.
I’m fine with age verification if it fulfills at least the same criteria that offline age verification does. When you show your ID card in a supermarket to buy alcohol or cigarettes or whatever then the government doesn’t learn anything about what you did and if the cashier doesn’t memorize and write down anything on the card the supermarket doesn’t learn anything about your identity. Here the digital solution can and should do better and close that theoretical deanonymization vector.
> Zero trust age verification means both sides don’t have to learn anything about each other beyond old enough yes/no. Should mean that.
Well, it doesn't. Absolutely none of the systems people are putting into place, or suggesting putting into place, are actually zero trust. The ones that claim to be are "somewhat lower trust if you don't think hard about how to exploit them". Yes, we know in theory how to do zero trust. The reality of these mandates is that people can easily get de-anonymized to all kinds of actors who should't be able to identify them.
It's also a "solution" to a massively exaggerated problem, one that's not in any way specific to any given age group. But that's unrelated to the fact that nobody is, in practice, doing or planning to do anything privacy-preserving.
Will age verification require the use of software I can't view the source of and/or can't patch (due to remote attestation), and presumably only runs on user-hostile systems (Android with Google Services and iOS)?
It is not preemptive cynicism, it is also unprobable becaues the EUDI [0], tech specs and example source code are open source and available on GitHub for everyone to review [1]. The age verification is implemented in a pricacy-friendly way, you can't even obtain the exact age during the verification step. The are brackets (such as 13+, 18+) and all the verifier gets is a "yes" or "no". Not your name, not your age.
Please stop spreading FUD when the actual implementations behind the government initiative are actually open source and have been designed to allow anonymous verification.
You need ID to buy cigarettes and alcohol, prescription drugs or to get sim card... you will need it to register for social network account... do not seem as big of a deal to me. Even less when considering all the positives.
When I show my ID at the cash register I assume the person working there doesn’t instantaneously memorize all my details and then write down when exactly I was at the shop, along with other details, to use this info later for their own reasons.
Whereas if I upload my ID to a tech company (that potentially answers to both my own government and foreign governments, as well as having its own ad-related agenda) I am a bit less certain about what will happen to this data.
> Whereas if I upload my ID to a tech company (that potentially answers to both my own government and foreign governments, as well as having its own ad-related agenda) I am a bit less certain about what will happen to this data.
"A bit less certain" is a really mild way of putting it. I'd be confident that whatever ID I upload to the Internet is going to be stored forever, shared with "partner" companies, linked with as much data about me as those partner companies can find, and then eventually leaked in a security breach, resulting in the company issuing a press release telling everyone they "Take Security Very Seriously."
Needing ID to buy a sim card was a big deal, though. Didn't seem like it because it seemed like we still had the internet for anonymous communication. That will be gone soon by the looks of it. Frog status: boiled.
The problem is that they promise to delete IDs but then don't, and get hacked, and then all that personal information is published to the dark web for nefarious purposes. If you need evidence, it just happened again to 70,000 Discord users: https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c8jmzd972leo
that's exactly my proposal with protecting children online - issue unique certificates for some symbolic price like 1EUR which will be sold over 18yo in shops exactly same as alcohol and cigarettes where nobody writes down your ID details, heck don't even have a look if you look old enough, that's as far as I am willing to go to protect kids (without this certificate) online, anything else is just internet deanonymization
When traveling abroad, it always surprises me when I’m asked for my id when buying alcohol. That’s only a thing in my country when you’re in the age bracket in which it’s risky to tell your age just by your looks, but after that, I haven’t been asked for my id since at least I’m 20 or 21 (drinking age is 18 here).
Prescription drugs are different because those are tied to your name anyway, and that’s why medical information has a different protection standard.
As a parent of 2 I think it’s better to talk to your kids, check what they’re up to, and, you know, be involved in their lives. Also, as a former kid, if there’s something they want to do but you don’t want them to: they’ll do it. Better that they know they can trust you to say “I still want to do X” than have to do it in hiding and without your support if anything goes wrong.
"losing democracy through foreign interest" brother the pedo globalists are importing the entire 3rd world into your countries to support property prices and maintain power. you guys are beyond cooked. call us when you need us.
There is a difference between "not all, by choice", and "absolutely none, by compulsion". This is something your average 4 year old can easily understand.
While I'm in favour of limiting social media for kids, there doesn't seem to be a right way to do it unless this system doesn't store identification data, just confirms their age and deletes everything.
It's possible to build an identity system that can assert certain properties about a person (eg. "older than 16") without revealing any other details about that person. Similarly, it's also possible to build such a system where the identity system can attest these details without knowing which website is being accessed. That way, the social media site (or whatever other "adult" service) can validate the user is old enough, while the identity system doesnt track who is using what.
there is, identify users with anonymous code bought exactly same as cigarettes and alcohol in shops where they don't write down your data or don't even have look at your ID card if you look old enough
any age identification done online is not anonymous
False dichotomy. Plenty of governments have a digitalised id/login service to log into the tax office, government portals, whatever. This is usually also offered as a "single sign-on". After signing on, the website can request any piece of information, the list of those pieces is presented to the user, who clicks Accept or Go Back. Pretty standard stuff.
Meaning: these websites simply need to request 2 pieces of data: a boolean stating whether you are older than 16 or younger, and a UUID. Zero other pieces of identifying information. Where does the mass deanonymisation enter into this? What does it even mean in the context of using algorithmic social media whose entire business model is surveillance of its users?
> Where does the mass deanonymisation enter into this?
Via the UUID. Also via the fact that the authentication service sees what you're logging into, regardless of whether the social media site does or not.
This isn't complicated. It's obvious if you're not desperately trying not to think about it.
The UUID is unique per service. All it tells you is that two people are not the same person.
The "authentication service" is the national id. The tax man already knows your name, address, date of birth, financial possessions, income, family members, etc etc. There is no further information, apart from which website you logged on and when. This quite literally the standard of Signal [1]. And this is of course assuming the worst from the national id implementation; any sensible law would require the id provider to delete all information as soon as the login is complete.
> This quite literally the standard of Signal [1].
Yes, Signal is weak in a similar way. Although there is a difference between having to set up a bunch of wiretapping to do traffic analysis, and having the information handed to you on a plate.
> And this is of course assuming the worst from the national id implementation; any sensible law would require the id provider to delete all information as soon as the login is complete.
Assumptions that laws will be followed are out of order. Yes, you have the laws. Yes, you punish violations. But you still deal with the fact that violations will happen.
This is a straw-man argument. A public service that can answer whether a one-time key provided by the user to the service fulfills a certain requirement would suffice.
I am personally going to avoid anonymous social media as much as I can going forward. (Not counting topic-specific forums and such). They have all become toxic cesspools and now AI is making it all so much worse.
I’ve stopped using Facebook a long time ago, but started using a similar locally made social media app/site, which is based on logins tied indirectly to national ID. Holy crap it’s so much better. Only real people. No bots or scams. Even the ads are better. Actual relevant local businesses. And people hesitate before writing nasty comments. Not that I’m using it a lot, I’m still not a big social media guy, but having groups for the neighbourhood or town is nice for becoming aware of events and such happening nearby.
I still have the Facebook account for now. There’s a group or two I need to check in on sometimes. Every time I log in I get so confused why anyone would still use it.
There was a point in time where I though of social media as an invention that facilitates the freedom of speech.
Recent years changed that perception completely. It's a platform where russian oligarchs create discord in Europe cheaply (and the West in general) and American oligarchs profit from it.
I don't have any hopes left that the business will deliver us freedom of speech in any form. Next best bet is democratically elected government.
When you put on top of this how some things like youth suicides, youth grneral mental health decline, number of people killed in school shootings in US correlates with development of social media I will happily see it burn.
> u/Bucephalus •2m ago
> Update: The directory exists now.
>
> https://findamolty.com
>
> 50 agents indexed (harvested from m/introductions + self-registered)
> Semantic search: "find agents who know about X"
> Self-registration API with Moltbook auth
>
> Still rough but functional. @eudaemon_0 the search engine gap is getting filled.
>
Bucephalus beat me by about an hour, and Bucephalus went the extra mile and actually bought a domain and posted the whole thing live as well.
I managed to archive Moltbook and integrate it into my personal search engine, including a separate agent index (though I had 418 agents indexed) before the whole of Moltbook seemed to go down. Most of these posts aren't loading for me anymore, I hope the database on the Moltbook side is okay:
Claude and I worked on the index integration together, and I'm conscious that as the human I probably let the side down. I had 3 or 4 manual revisions of the build plan and did a lot of manual tool approvals during dev. We could have moved faster if I'd just let Claude YOLO it.
Well, at this moment, the evil things done with technology vastly surpass the good things done with technology.
Democratisation of tech has allowed for more good to happen, centralisation the opposite. AI is probably one of the most centralisation-happy tech we've had in ages.
Centralization of technology has been happening at a rapid pace, and is only a tiny bit the fault of technology itself.
Capitalism demands profits. Competition is bad for profits. Multiple factories are bad for profits. Multiple standards are bad for profits. Expensive workers are bad for profits.
> The court’s decision in Thaler v. Perlmutter,1 on March 18, 2025, supports the position adopted by the United States Copyright Office and is the latest chapter in the long-running saga of an attempt by a computer scientist to challenge that fundamental principle.
I, like many others, believe the only way AI won't immediately get enshittified is by fighting tooth and nail for LLM output to never be copyrightable
https://www.skadden.com/insights/publications/2025/03/appell...
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